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Time For Fellowship Masonic Podcast
The Time For Fellowship Masonic Podcast is your professionally unprofessional Masonic podcast where Brothers Matt & Andrew explore Freemasonry with humor, heart, and brotherly banter.
We shine a light on Wisconsin Freeasonry through chats with local Brothers, covering history, symbols, ritual, and the weird stuff in between.
One laugh, one lesson at a time.
Time For Fellowship Masonic Podcast
Season 3: Thiele-napped Again | Time For Fellowship S3E1
Welcome back to Fellowship & Welcome to Season 3!
After a much-needed winter break filled with rest, snacks, and probably a few forgotten dues notices, the brosts are back and ready to kick off the new year.
To start the season, we're joined by a familiar voice. It's our very first guest (S1E5) the one and only WB Jeff Thiele. He just wrapped up his second term in the East, a full 9 years after his first. He claims it was voluntary, but we have questions.
Andrew is now the Worshipful Master of his lodge, and with Jeff recently finishing his latest run with the gavel, the timing couldn't be better. We're talking lessons learned, surprises the second time around, and what it's like to step back into the Chair after nearly two decades.
So loosen up your season 3s, sit back with your season 3s, and relax for season 3, because it is time for season 3 of fellowship!
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How's it going, Andrew? What's going on? Welcome to season three, baby. Season three. That's crazy to think about. I mean, if you think about it, our first season could have been two seasons because of we weren't doing seasons then. So we could have been in our fourth season technically, but yeah, but one of them would have been a really short one.
SPEAKER_01:So that's true. You know, at least we did it this way. I do at the opening here want to do a shout out. I do uh worshipful brother, or is it right, worshipful brother, Jim Hall and the Traveling Man Masonic podcast for hitting 100,000 listens.
SPEAKER_04:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he had a post about it the other day. I saw that's crazy big. So good for him.
SPEAKER_04:Congratulations. Congratulations. It's been a couple months, and a lot has happened. It's been a month. Feels like it's been forever. In in podcast time, when you miss, I don't know, four weeks, it feels like a year went by because that's true.
SPEAKER_01:That's true. I should point out that I technically have to call you worshipful master now. Yeah, you do.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, you do.
SPEAKER_01:You're officially installed, and we're all scared.
SPEAKER_04:I'm still scared. But what's crazy about it? So for our listeners, quick speed up on uh what Matt and I have been up to. We had a nice zoo date together, which was fun. We went to the zoo. Oh, yeah, for wild lights, took the wives and the kids. Mm-hmm. And saw some animals at night. Ooh. And there's like a light thing set up for Christmas. Uh, we had installation come up. Yeah. And so I'm officially the master of my lodge. And also we had our Breakfast with Santa event, which had a record-breaking number of people. Yeah. So much so that I'm surprised none of us had a panic attack. But when you just keep putting out more and more and more and more tables at non-stop to fill in, I think we were about max capacity for what that building can fit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I would I would say we were right up there about it would have been hard pressed to get any more tables out without like removing some of the seating area stuff, which maybe next year we should take like one little area of the seating area down to allow for more table room, so it's a little less cramped. But we only had one table left in the in the preserves, too. Right. Right. So we it was definitely very successful. The team ran it very smoothly. It it was it was very stress-free, honestly. We just kind of kept doing our things, and it was like, should we put up another table? Yeah, just put one up.
SPEAKER_04:You know, to be fair, it seemed like the kitchen was less stressed because you guys had your inventory under control. The floor team with me was like table, like just keep putting tables out until you stop seeing people walking in the door. Or you run out of tables. Another table, snip it off, get me some stuff to put on it. Another table, get the chairs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, it was a lot of fun though, and it went really well.
SPEAKER_04:So the weird thing about being now installed as master, but at this time of year, since it's right around the holidays, I still feel like I'm not master yet because I haven't done my first meeting, which will be next week.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I've been Worstful Brother Jeff, who we'll bring up in a second, his last agenda to try to figure out my agenda. I'm like, wait, what were we even doing?
SPEAKER_01:Actually, your first meeting will be the day this podcast comes out.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And so uh our secretary texted me the other day, he's like, is there anything that like I need to be doing or something on there? I'm like, I don't think so. I was like, I'm looking through the agenda, I was like, I'm probably gonna forget some stuff till the first meeting. People will be like, remind me. I'll be like oh crap. Couple of pending tasks already sitting on my plate that I have to figure out like right off the gun.
SPEAKER_01:And so potential ballot right out of the gates.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, potential ballot right out of the gate. Degree teams already need to be assembled, which I don't even know how to do yet, but I needed to learn pretty quick. Big event coming up right off the bat, one of our biggest of the year with the Robert Burns Table Lodge. And to our listeners, if you have not signed up yet and you live in the area and you want to come to the Robert Burns Table Lodge, please RSVP ASP ASAP. Yep, you'll have about five days as of the airing of this episode. Yep. And you can do it directly on Groupable, and by just simply clicking on the event, there's a RSVP button that allows you to pay and sign up. Or else you can send a check in the mail.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yep, that'll work. You can find the flyer on our Facebook page if you need more info or reach out to us.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_01:Cool.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so lots been going on. But now we're back in the swing, and I think we should invite on our very special guest.
SPEAKER_01:I would agree. Hit that music.
SPEAKER_00:Loosen up your ties and roll up your sleeves. It's time for fellowship with Matt and Andrew. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are not necessarily the views and opinions of the Grand Lodge of Wisconsin or any other Grand Lodge or any appended body. I'll let you do the honors, Andrew.
SPEAKER_04:All right. We are sitting here in our good friend, and he's been on the podcast a couple of times, Worshipful Brother Jeff Teeley. We're sitting down in his basement. We're watching the Packer game over our shoulders, sorta. Uh welcome, Jeff. How are you guys doing? Happy New Year, Worshipful Master. Brand new worshipful master, sir. Thank you, most junior worshipful brother.
SPEAKER_05:Whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Junior Passmaster, yeah. Most junior pass master. That means he's the one you go to for everything.
SPEAKER_05:I've already called him like twice. That's okay. We're here for that, right?
SPEAKER_04:Cool. Well, welcome to the show. Thank you. Excited to have you back to kick off season three. Cool. You were definitely one of our earliest guests on He was our very first guest.
SPEAKER_01:Oh. He was our original guinea pig. Wow. Even better. And then he's been on a few times since because there's at least that initial episode, and then there was the cave degree one for sure, the Sturgis one, hunting. Hunting, yeah, the turkey hunting one. I think there was another one somewhere in there, too, where he at least made an appearance. So yeah, he is definitely our most minute guest.
SPEAKER_03:The motion minutes. Either I'm doing a good job or you guys are desperate to pick. Why can't it be both? A little bit of both.
SPEAKER_01:No, so you know, as I was thinking about like season three and getting different guests, which we're we're gonna be trying to make a focus on again this year, is having more guests and kind of scheduling more in advance. We I thought you would be able to offer a unique perspective on a very specific topic in that you first sat in the East in 2016, and you again sat in the East in 2025, which a lot changed during that almost decade time when it comes to technology and communication and just what the Lodge was doing and where the Lodge was at and everything else. And a lot changed with you having done various leadership roles in the fraternity in between there. So I was kind of curious, A, how you felt this second go-around went, and B, how it was different from the first time.
SPEAKER_03:I would almost think that a guy should sit two years or do it at least twice. You get to know you you know what you did wrong the first time or what you could have improved on, and you get a second chance to do that. Yes, technology is definitely a lot different. I don't think we really did a lot of text groups, group texts when I was the master the first time. Obviously, email's been around for a long time, we did that, but it wasn't as prevalent, I think. So technology definitely plays a bigger part of it. You know, the social media is a lot bigger now than it was in 2016. You know, we barely use a website anymore, everything is social media or you know, the Discord or the Facebook or stuff like that. So communication I think plays a big part of it. A real a real big part. I was able to stay in contact with my officers more. I believe in not only transparency, as as much as a boss can be as transparent with you know his his the people that work for him, communication all the time, right? Because I can't be mad at a guy who doesn't show up if he's not communicating, hey, I'm not gonna be there for this. Or I can't be mad at the brothers for not doing what I'm expecting you to do if I don't communicate that in advance, you know. So definitely technology has changed. I I do think I had a much better year than my first time. Definitely conferred a lot more degrees on my own this time. We we've done all three of them several times over. I I just feel I just feel like I was a I did a lot better this year.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I know in early conversations that you and I had towards the beginning of your year, and I I think technology and communication capabilities played a lot into this, is one of your early statements to me was this is a lot more work than I remember it being.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Like, and you know, yes, texting and email and social media existed in 2016, but I've been like trying to go back and rack my head and being like, how many group chats did I have in 2016? How much was I really like utilizing like email or how many places were really using email blasts and stuff like that? And you know, Facebook definitely, if you look at the trend of like social media, has become gigantic like in the last decade or so, like 15 years, it's really started to blow up versus what it like initially was in the early 2000s up to like 2010, 2015. And so I was just like, man, that has to be just such a different landscape to navigate now. Like, and that was my first year in the East, that landscape existed, so I don't have anything to compare it to.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and think about this what was Lake Lodge like in 2016?
SPEAKER_03:Oh well, you know, we still do a lot of the staple events now that we did then, right? You mentioned Burns dinners coming up, of course, at the end of January. I highly recommend everybody come. It's a great event, it's cheap, what 30, 35 bucks you know, for a great meal and good fellowship. You can't beat it. And libations, and libations. You do, yep. You absolutely do. You and it and it's and it's a good time, you know. So we did Burns, we did breakfast with Santa. We do, I think we do a lot more now than we did before. You know, uh we've got the axe throwing, we've got chill on the hill, we've got just a lot more events that we're doing now. So it's it's definitely a lot more work now than it would have been in 2016. We always had pretty decent officer corps. You know, Lake's always been pretty blessed with that, although there was, you know, that smidgen in when Brad started that we had a couple of holes, which is why Brad sat for three years straight to fill those holes. Uh, but we've been very fortunate to be able to fill those holes in in our line every year since 2016. So but yeah, it just the the lodge itself was there, still active, still good, still do, you know, what I think is by far some of the best degree work in the state. It just this this is a lot, we're a lot busier now. I think that would be the biggest change. We're a lot busier, and we have officers now that are a little bit more in tune to the the communication and the social media and the technology aspect of it than we were in 2016.
SPEAKER_04:I just feel like I'm scared now that he's actually started years like I remember this being as busy as it was. And I'm like, oh no.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it for you, Andrew. It is a lot of work, and your phone will blow up at the most inopportune time where you're like, I don't really want to be dealing with this right now, but this has to get dealt with. And you're like, you know, and at the end of the year, you're like, I just want to turn my phone off for a week.
SPEAKER_03:It is exact. It's been a great, it's been a great month. No emails, no texts.
SPEAKER_04:Jeff immediately was like, remove me from all of the text groups and take me up all the stuff. I don't want to see it.
SPEAKER_03:And there's and there's two reasons for that. Number number one, we because we are such an active lodge and we do so much, and we and the communication has gotten way better since it wasn't sixteen, you're constantly communicating, right? I mean, we're talking to all of the officers or a couple of the officers or the junior warden and the kitchen staff, just you know, we're we're always communicating, but that helps drive an active lodge, right? So and you know, and and the the master should be should be with the trustees, you know. The trustees aren't the single entity that runs the lodge, right? They work for the master, the master's elected by the by the people, and it's important to stay in contact with the trustees. So there's a lot of different text groups and emails, and that is one of the I thought about that this morning when I looked at my calendar and saw you guys were coming over today. I'm like, man, it's been really nice and quiet the last couple of weeks, not a constant ding ding, ding, ding, ding. You know, because you have to remember there's if if if all officers respond, that's 13 guys in a text group. That's potential at least 10 text messages flying back and forth by 10 different guys at any given time. It's that that part of it has really been. Well, then if we start memeing each other, it could be 35 dings. Oh, yeah, yeah, right, because everybody puts their at least three memes in. So that's true.
SPEAKER_01:That's true. We do, but you know, I think that's that's good for the group, you know, having that steady stream of communication when something comes up maybe on the fly, you're not just you're not always just reaching out for business. Sometimes we're just having fun in that chat, you know, and it it develops the camaraderie of the team, you know. So I I I think it's a useful tool. It does get a bit overwhelming at times.
SPEAKER_03:It can, yeah. But you know what? But that's as a master and and well, really when you think about it as an officer of the lodge, that's the sacrifice that you agree to when you are elected or you are appointed, right? Asked to be an officer of the lodge, that's the sacrifice you make. You know, I'm not saying masonry should be first and foremost on everybody's list, right? But to run an active lodge and to keep an active lodge steady and going and to be as again as good as as we are, and that's not being arrogant, we we do a good job, you know, but and we can prove it. But but that's the sacrifice that you agree to is staying in contact.
SPEAKER_04:I would agree. So I'm trying to learn when I'm gonna shift from my Andrew persona and then slowly devolve into Jeff. Because like right now, when I'm trying to get like follow-ups and stuff like that, I'm still in the Andrew persona, like, hey man, no big deal. Just you know, it's really important by this date. You know, I'm giving a lot of leeway, a little softness to it, and I'm waiting for the point where I'm like, all right, Mother Effers.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. And then that's that that is legitimately how you start out, too. You're like, okay, I want it done by this day, please have it done by this day. And then the first couple times somebody doesn't get it done by that day, then you're like, all right, now we now we gotta have a chat.
SPEAKER_03:It changes real fast.
unknown:Real fast.
SPEAKER_04:And like the the challenge that I've found is like where me and Jeff diverge a little bit is Jeff is very deadline driven, but he also sets his deadlines in advance enough that there is some wiggle room for when they fail to do it, right? That you can have a chance to jump back on them. I am a little bit more like, since I'm a procrastinator by nature, I'm like, ah, you missed it. It didn't ruin my life, but you need to hustle now and get it done. But I'm just waiting to see when that changes in my heart. I start to be like, dude, like guys, I'm not asking. Well, the thing is, what has almost already started frustrating me a little bit. Since I am so nice and understanding, I'm like, don't take advantage of it though. Like, like just do your stuff. Like Jeff just said, you agreed to do this. Right. I've gone through, you know, every one of these chairs. I have also done what you've done, and I understand that things get in the way sometimes and stuff like that. So I'm understanding, but like you still have to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Fulfill your obligation, right? And I look at setting deadlines for different tasks that I'm looking for people to accomplish. Much how like I run the kitchen and the speech my stewards got this year. My goal is for dinner to always be ready 20 minutes early, and for us to have all our stuff done 20 minutes early. So A, we can take a breath before service begins, or B, we have 20 minutes of wiggle room if something didn't go right.
SPEAKER_04:The oven doesn't heat up like it's supposed to.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. You know, so if you give somebody a deadline, give them an early deadline. So if it doesn't happen, they got like another week technically before it's an absolute must-have, right?
SPEAKER_03:One thing that I've one thing I've had to tell myself all my life, not only in masonry, but in my in my personal career or personal life, things with my friends and whatnot, and something my mom told me, she always would tell me, because if you think I'm like this now, I was like this as a kid, let me tell you. Um my mom would always say, Jeff, you can't expect everybody to be like you. And that has resonated with me for years and years and years, right? I mean, my mom is now past, I'm 52, it's been a long time. So in order for me to I don't want to say make people not not be like me or do what I want, you you have to you have to read the room, right? So I would give and Andrew's right, I would give an expectation date a week in advance of what I really needed it, so that I'm giving that person the opportunity not only to achieve, but to get the get the task done. You know what I'm saying? Because I can't always expect everybody to be as anal retentive, O C D, ADHD, like you all know I am, right? I can't expect that. So you have to you have to change the way that you you have to change the way that you look at things and run things in the lodge. Because we have 13 officers with 13 different personalities, and where you know you and I might be very similar, Matt, and you're like you said, we're very different. So you have you have to be able to adjust like that and read the room and know your people and and care about your people enough to give them the opportunity to succeed, because when we all succeed, the lodge succeeds. So that resonates with me all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Ultimately, the your job as a leader, as a good leader, is to set other people up for success. That's right. You know.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and one thing that was nice, even though we have different personalities, is my personality does very very well with clearly defined deadlines and instructions. Because I have challenges at times prioritizing things correctly. So when the master sets very clear, like you don't have to think when you prioritize it, here's your time, do it by then. It makes it easier for someone like me to be like, okay, I know exactly where I need to put my energy right now because it's clear. And I think that's to your point why it's so important. And one thing I always learn from you is over define your roles and expectations. And so in the officer meeting, I you might have saw that handout I gave at the one that we shared together where it was your last one and you gave me a spot. Was I gave exact breakdowns of every single officer's positions and what I'm expecting of them because I was like, this is what Jeff would similarly do. It's like, so if anyone's like, wait, who's setting up the antechamber? I know that a lot of the time Andrew used to do it, but now he's not. It's like it's clearly defined in your roles who is doing that. And it's like, so I like that about the way that you led is that it was just there weren't that question marks where you're like, I wish I knew what to do, but there's no designs laid out for me. What am I supposed to do? And you're like, Well, now there's no question marks.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and then if somebody doesn't get their job done, you can go back to that and go, No, no, it clearly says this is your job right here.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. Well, one of the I think two of the things that I made big changes on this year was number one, as the master of the lodge, you are the one elected to run the lodge. If you can't handle it, get out, right? You shouldn't be in you shouldn't be in a senior warden or junior warden's position, ready to move up if you're not going to be able to handle it. My very first year, I let a couple of different brothers run things. And I said, this is not gonna happen this year, right? I'm I'm the boss. I I'm a different person I was in 2016, obviously. So that's the one thing that I did change. The number two, and this goes to the communication part that we're all speaking about right now, is with your with your blessing, Matt, right? It was six months into your term. I had the f the first of several officers' meetings throughout the year, right? Right. I did this as a district deputy. I had regular officers meetings with my with my team, team meetings, right, so that they would know what's coming out of the Grand Lodge right now. So you could give the best information to the to the group right now. I do feel it's important to get together face to face, right? I always pop for pizza and beer at my house. I had everybody out, and we we had a great officers meeting. But one thing that you allowed me to do was to have an officers' meeting right away in June where I laid out those expectations, much like you gave it in in paper form, this is what I'm going to expect for the next year. And gave gave people six months of an out. Now that sounds wrong, I guess, or weird, but this is this is how it's gonna be. If you don't like it, let's either A talk about it and figure it out, or B, step out, right? Because this is the way it's gonna be. Right. And then we did another one in November after elections, and I said, Okay, well you guys have agreed to stay this long. I'm telling you again, here are the expectations. So when it did come time for things to be when people were a little bit laxidasal on it, I could sit back and I could tell that person, well, I told you in June, and I told you in November, and we had another meeting in January, and we had one in I don't know, April, I think it was, something like that. We had these regular meetings. This is on you. Figure it out. And if you don't like it, get out. You know, lodges will survive, right? It's tough when you lose a guy in the line, they will survive. And if you can't handle it, get out. But I gave those expectations well in advance. And you know what? I think that helped. That's uh that's something I didn't do my first time, right? So that that's one of that's why I wanted to mention it. It's something I didn't do the first time. And I think this was so much better. You know, at the time that I was the master the first time, six months into my term, I was asked to be an area administrator, and then I didn't really think about but as an AA, you're having staff meetings with your district deputy, or at least you should be. And and that and I learned that that I don't want to say skill task or strategy. Strategy. Thank you, Andrew. Strategy. I learned that strategy, right? And I think I I think that's probably one of the best things that we can do at Lake is continue to give that not only the motivation to people, like I know you can do this. Here's what I'm expecting, I know you can do it. Tell me if you can't, let's work on it. Right. Or be a man and step out if you can't do it.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And one thing that's interesting that you brought up that it's been bracking around in my ri my mind for maybe a little over a year, is I've started to think that a lodge should endeavor to run like a mini Grand Lodge. And so if you're trying to figure out a lot of people that would disagree with you, I'm telling you. I know, but I'm saying if you look at you're trying to look for better ways to run your lodge, look at how the larger body has to manage even more people than you, a whole state, what strategies are they employing to do that effectively, right? And so whereas they're doing it at the larger level, managing all those lodges, all that stuff, I think every individual lodge should endeavor to try to operate like a tiny, teeny tiny Grand Lodge for their small two mile by four or five mile blocks. That's usually where they're servicing the community and stuff. And it's like think like that. Because if you think of like the the history of Freemasonry in what, 1717 or whatever, when the Gruose and Gridiron, when they made it their first Grand Lodge, it was just individual lodges came together and said, How do we do this at the larger level? So at a certain extent, they had to have been doing some of these tactics at the smaller level. And I think that lodges can be very successful when they have that mindset. Like if the Grand Lodge is doing it, we're gonna do it smaller. Like, you know what I mean?
unknown:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:I I would say to you that I know that there's a lot of anti-grand lodge people out there, and I'm hoping that that I've tried to do have that sentiment change when I was an AA and a D D. But I I agree with you, you know, the Grand Lodge does a lot right. They do some things wrong. Nob nobody here is perfect. There's nobody sitting at this table or anybody listening to this podcast in any state, anywhere that's perfect, right? It's a lot of trial and error, you figure out what works. But when you when you break it down to what the tenants of Freemasonry are, it's no different at the Grand Lodge level than it is here. And if you can manage, you know, 7,000 Masons in a state, or like Ohio's got 30 and tens of thousands of you know, if you can manage it at a Grand Lodge level, take some of that, those strategies and make that your own in your lodge, you know. Makes a b I I think that my time in the gr in as being a Grand Lodge officer definitely helped me for this year.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and some of the things that you taught us from your your Grand Lodge experience that have become SOPs at our lodge, and you know, me and you've talked about that for years. You build SOPs, I've built SOPs, trying to have a legacy left behind so that people don't have to reinvent the wheel. They can adjust the wheel, they can reshape the machine a little bit, but it gives them something so they're not every year going to zero, building back a base level and starting over. Say, don't start over. This can be changed however you need to based on time, but you have something to go with has made our lodge truly operate like a tiny grand lodge. And that's I think representative in why we're the biggest lodge in the state. Do operate at such a high level. And like you said, when you're saying, you know, hey, I'm just telling you, like, here's your responsibilities. If this ain't gonna work, I'm sorry, like you can step out. It's because in a lodge that's running that aggressively on stuff, if someone's not willing to do it, they're gonna A, have a really bad time, and then it's gonna be worse for everybody, or they're gonna say, like, hey, like, this is more than I'm able to bite off right now. And it's like, hey, no shame. You know what I mean? Because it is a pretty big responsibility to take. And as I'm sitting at in the most responsible position after six years of riding through all that stuff, like, yeah, it is it's a lot of work. No matter what position you are in, it's a pretty decent amount of work, and it just gets more.
SPEAKER_05:Yep.
SPEAKER_04:So if you're struggling to keep up with your work as a steward, and you're like, oh, next year's gonna be better, it's not. It's gonna get worse.
SPEAKER_01:Life's gonna get in the way, all sorts of stuff is gonna happen. I do want to jump back on SOPs for a second, though, and do a callback to something earlier that we talked about earlier in the podcast. First of all, for any listener who might not know what we mean when we say SOP, it's standard operating procedure. And you had mentioned earlier how smoothly the kitchen was running on the day of breakfast with Santa while everything was going on. And that's because we have an SOP. It's a SOP I need to update a little bit because of you know the scale that the event's taken on now. But we have an SOP, we have a grocery shopping list, we have exactly what time you should be starting the ovens and starting to boil water and you know when you're mixing batter, when pancakes are hitting the griddle. It like it is laid out to a T for you. And if you follow that plan, you are ready and set to go for the event. And then if the event is way bigger that day than you expected, you just keep going, you know, because you had something to set it up, you have a guide to follow, right? You know, you're already set up for success to start out.
SPEAKER_03:And that's really what we should be doing, right? And and that's something that I tried to instill. I told everybody, like I said, in June, in November, the whole year, it should you you should be acting as a team. I I did things to make it easier for you, and you should be striving to do things to make it easier for Matt again. I mean, Matt's been in the East once already, but there's always room for improvement, right? So put in the hard work now to make it a little easier for your predecessor. Not only that, put in the hard work to teach the younger guys coming up. And I don't mean younger in age, I mean younger in Masonic age, right? Yeah. Because I always talk about the Ethans and and uh and Jesse. Keep them involved, teach them, tell them when you here are in the East or in the West, this is what you're going to run into, prepare for it now. You know what I mean? Right. Set that stage, set that base, not necessarily an SOP for it, but set the base now so that they see it, they read it, they learn it, they understand it. So by the time they become, you know, an elected officer and whatnot, nervous, but somewhat comfortable.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. No, and that goes back to transparency. The more transparent you are on as a leader on things you can be transparent on, right? Because some stuff you just can't be transparent on, some stuff needs to stay stay in a small, close-knit group because I went through that my year in the East. At the very end, there was an issue that needed to be resolved, but it needed to stay like amongst the worshipful master and the wardens, and that was about it. And but the more transparent you can be on those things you can be transparent of, like, yeah, so you know, this came up the other day or whatever, and have those conversations with your younger officers, the more they will understand in the future. And that's that's where transparency comes in because even five years down the road when they find themselves sitting in the east. I remember Jeff telling me about something similar that happened while he was in the east, and this is how he handled it, you know, and that was a pretty good way to handle it. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna follow his lead on that, you know, because sure, you don't remember everything from five years ago, but every now and then you get something that triggers that memory of going, Oh, wait, I remember this from somewhere, you know. Or they might reach out to you and go, Hey, I know you had something similar happen. So how did you deal with it? And, you know, how do you think I should deal with it? Right. And that's where transparency and the ability to reach out to your past masters really comes in handy.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and you know, it's interesting too, to your point, talking about training those younger officers. I remember like a year ago, one of our younger officers was like, I just don't understand what the world's gonna look like without an Andrew, a Jeff, a Matt, and some of these officers, I mean, I would say all three of us are pretty much workhorses in our lodges and have been for many years. And they go, When you guys are gone and I ascend, like, how are we gonna do this? And so when that was brought to my attention, I was like, dude, we were all sitting in that spot. I remember when I'm sitting there going, what's the world gonna be like without a Jeremy, a John, a Bill, and like the guys who were the ones who were leading in front of me. How are we gonna do it without them? They're the ones who the the the wise teachers, the ones who knew how to do the stuff. And that's part of the reason why I surrendered my social media duties begrudgingly, because I I it's like my baby and I have a hard time giving it up. But I've seen too many lodges that have what I call the quote unquote lodge boss who he's done everything, still does everything. And so when you're saying, like, hey, the master comes in and he's not actually the master, he is a puppet for the lodge boss who actually knows how to do everything because he's held all of these responsibilities for so long. When that guy goes, a lodge almost can collapse immediately because they haven't passed on enough. So when I was thinking, I'd like I need to cross-train and pass this off, it was to say, like, if you give away more stuff, because we, you know, when you were in the officer's line still, as of you know, a couple months ago, you were wearing so many hats, and you've always worn so many hats. I wear a lot of hats, Matt wears a lot of hats, doing various, not only your main jobs, but tons of other little side things, is trying to peel some of those things off over time to say we gotta spread this out. Otherwise, yeah, if if you when you are done and you take the seat to relax for a second, they're gonna be like, Well, this is a lot to be taken on. Like, we're we're we're you know, we're f-bombed.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's part of the reason, like with the open house. I started the open house and then instantly went, it's just gonna be housed with the junior warden, so that every year there is somebody new organizing and coordinating that event so that they could get that experience. So it wasn't just well, Matt'll take care of organizing the open house every year, right? You know, you need to you almost need to assign it to a chair so that this way as people move through they get that experience, and you have multiple people that know how to do it.
SPEAKER_03:And we did that this year, right? So I changed that with the lodge membership rep, made it instead of having some volunteer, made it part of the chair. A a junior officer, but somebody who's been around for a couple of years, right? So junior deacon, if lodges are able to move somebody through the line every chair, right? So I made it the junior deacon, and I think that Ethan did a really good job with it. Obviously, he's now moved those reins over to Jesse, and I know Jesse's gonna do a good job with it, but putting that out there early to them, you know, like I mentioned before, and being transparent in the meet in our staff meetings, right? And and specifically talking to those young guys. Hey, when in four years, when you're the boss, you're gonna come across something like this. Pay attention how we're doing it now, right? So I I always try to point these things out to them and keep them involved and keep them. What is your opinion? Well, what do you think about it, even as a junior officer, because it it it not only builds that camaraderie, it built, but it it's it's building that team and it's building these younger, these younger bosses, really, when you think about it, right? And so now Ethan's passed that off to Jesse, and Jesse's gonna pass that off to Ethan. It's important that we continue that so that when they do have those problems, like you mentioned, Andrew, what happens when the Mats and the Andrews and the Jasons and the Jeffs aren't there anymore? Well, you should have you should have the basis, you should have that groundwork laid.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:We're always gonna be a phone call or a text away to help you or give you our opinion because you're gonna they ask for it. But teach the young guys everything that you can now about everything that there is for every chair for uh for for the lodge as much as you can, be as transparent as you can, and you're gonna build those new leaders, you know. Again, like you mentioned, Matt, some things stay between a master and the couple of wardens, or the master, the secretary, and treasurer, some something to that effect, right? That's just part of human nature. If anybody's ever run a business or been a boss, you know you're not always giving a hundred percent out to the people, 85% as much or as much as you can. You got you gotta that's what that's one thing I definitely did different this year was communication in in that fashion. And I think it worked out okay.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I no, I agree. And you know, I've been thinking about it a lot lately, like what makes us strong as a line? And we ran into a couple of line issues over the last couple years where we had to have people step away and stuff like that. But the transparency and the training that we do with these officers, and since the Packer game's on in the background, it's kind of popped my head. Does everybody remember last time the Packers won the Super Bowl, right? We it was the 2010 season, so Super Bowl was played in 2011. Sam Congado was our running back in the Super Bowl. He was like the third string running back at the beginning of the season. But as that season progressed and those players were interviewed, the the team's motto was next man up the whole way through. And that's how you develop a strong line in your lodge. Is if somebody can't do it, somebody has to step out, whatever, next man up, willing to jump in, get the job done. You know, next man up, next man up, next man up.
SPEAKER_04:God, that's how much they must feel right now with all the second, third stringers they got rolling around this game.
SPEAKER_03:We're currently losing 13-0. So I'm not looking.
SPEAKER_04:I'm not looking.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:No, but yeah, I think there is just a lot that we learned from you over the last, not even just the last year, the last four or five years on how to effectively an effective organization. And when we were talking with Jeremy and Victor on our veterans episode, they were talking about like, yeah, all the things they were saying veterans bring into an organization. I go, that's just what Jeff does.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I go, that's Jeff's dumb.
SPEAKER_04:If you guys could ever visualize Jeff's camper, and you can just try to visualize a camper. If you ask him, like, hey man, where's a pan? He's like, upper left drawer, top shelf, left. He's like, where's bungee quartz? Bottom bunk under like storage area, it's gonna be in a blue container there. It's like everything is all organized and has a spot. So it makes the operation go smoothly, but there's no like, oh, you need that. It's like I've already planned every outcome that could possibly happen.
SPEAKER_03:Because you can't plan every outcome that can possibly happen, so you might as well try to prepare yourself for what you can right off the bat.
SPEAKER_01:Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
SPEAKER_02:Hi, listeners. I'm brother Samuel. I'm Brother Gabriel, and I'm Brother Ryan. And we're the hosts from the third degree of the Sonic Podcast. We hope you're enjoying the time for you as much as we are. If you're looking for further knowledge on the Sonic Hadge, check us out. And remember for that.
SPEAKER_03:I think another thing that helped me this year too was not everybody gets the opportunity to sit every chair twice. Or almost every chair twice, right? You know, Brad sat his three years straight. That's I mean, that's huge, sitting three years as a master. Jeremy sat for two years straight, you know. I actually had the opportunity to go back and kind of do things better in the chairs that I sat. So I my first time through, I I started as junior steward, skipped senior steward, and sat every chair. This time I skipped the steward's chairs and went in as junior deacon, but sat every chair. I made better meals as a junior warden. Way better meals than a junior.
SPEAKER_05:You guys didn't you guys didn't. You were part of that. Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Way better. I'm not a big cook, but way better meals as a junior warden. I think that my degree work as a as the senior deacon, which is a integral part of your your degree work, was a lot better at when I was the senior deacon. So you got that opportunity to do things better, but I got the opportunity to do it in almost every chair. That's that was that was big for me too. Because you learn, you still learn, you learn something different every time, right?
SPEAKER_01:And well that's that is huge. And you got to do it with a different set of leadership in front of you, right? So there was there's a different vibe going on. Things were things were in a better place than when Brad had to sit three in a row, right? So you got you got to go through again with like different leadership and a different vibe going on in the lodge and kind of take some lessons away from that while improving yourself in the chairs you had already previously done. I I was kind of disappointed that my my tenure as senior deacon again only lasted six months because I was really enjoying being there again, and I was like, man, next man up. You really got right, yeah, exactly. You really gotta you really gotta, you know, take advantage of the fact that you've been given the opportunity to do it better than you did the first time.
SPEAKER_04:What's funny too is so Jeff, we made fun of so from for listeners, Lake Lodge Lore. Jeff was given so much crap about his cold cut sandwiches. So it wasn't every time, by the way. Seriously, it it pizza and cold cut sandwiches was like the joke. So when he's coming back in to uh junior warden, I think we were at the bar. He's like, you know, guys, I was I was thinking I could probably make a casserole.
SPEAKER_02:And we were like, that sounds amazing.
SPEAKER_04:He's like, you know, I've been seeing this woman on Facebook and she's been making a lovely tortellini casserole. Girl gone grilling, she's amazing. And he's like, he's like, I think I could do that. We were like, yeah, I think you absolutely could do that. Right. So he gets that done. And he's and it's a success, it's delicious. I said, Oh, I think I have another idea we could do from a similar type of thing. I'm gonna make sliders with chicken. Those were those are good. Those are great. And then so this fear that he had of being like, I can't cook, it's like, oh, you can. You just need to see a video on how to make something and then do what Jeff can do well, make it bulk and go boom. Right it goes. And so then it worked out. So it's like you not only get a second chance at Worstful Master, you had a second chance at Junior Warden being like, Well, now I'm gonna try to do what the wardens in front of me were doing.
SPEAKER_03:Dude, it was m I was making up for the first.
SPEAKER_01:You know, you know what's sad though? Is you you get into that mindset now, and I can't help it. But every time I see a video of a recipe, the first thought that goes through my head is, is this scalable for like 30 people?
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely, man. You gotta use that stuff to your advantage.
SPEAKER_04:And then the crazy thing is you get this 30-person mindset after you're done with the warden. So, like when I did my birthday party like two years ago, the chicken teddy party, I immediately go to GFS and I'm just doing the same thing I do shopping for lodge, buying in bulk, night before I'm marinating stuff, and I'm like, this is just I'm in lodge mode again. Even though Matt had to help me out at that by cooking at the uh the fryer because it was taking forever, but still, it's like that same mindset. You learn that skill to be like, I can make food now small or big, and then you get that mindset. Like, how where do I shop? How do I get in bulk? How do I do this stuff to make it affordable? How do I stay under budget?
SPEAKER_01:Well, and it makes it so much easier, even in your personal life, to host a party at your house, right? Because now you're like, oh, I can I can cook for 30 people. Yeah. All right, no big deal.
SPEAKER_03:Right. That's right. So I I think that this was a much it was how how can I put it? It was easier because I knew kind of what to expect, but it was harder because we do a lot more work than we did in 2016. I do think too that listening to different points of view, right? I called I called you many times, Andrew, for a a different point of view.
SPEAKER_04:Don't yell at him, Daddy. Don't yell at him, Daddy.
SPEAKER_03:Right? Um a different point of view.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's stuck on that for a second.
SPEAKER_05:I'm gonna kill him. Don't kill him, Daddy, don't kill him.
SPEAKER_03:Um if you always go half-cocked, which something I was I've been known to do many times, I think this year listening to the like the tenets of what masonry does, right, to make a good man better. I took a little bit more time this year to stop, decide, right, think about it, weigh the pros and cons, talk to a different point of view, talk to I mean, I talked to Matt often, I talked to Andrew, you often, Andrew, a different point of view to make a more well-informed decision. I think it's pisspoor that a leader would surround himself with all yes men because you're not effec you're not really effectively leading and you're not doing the the craft or or your job or your business or your military squad or whatever any justice by always having yes men. You have to have somebody there or some b several people that will say to you, Oh, hey boss, I think that I think we should maybe think about it this way. What what do you think about doing it this way? Now you're not always going to take that person's point of view, but there might be instead of having a split in the road, you might come together and say, Oh, that's a really good idea. How do we merge these two ideas by looking at a different point of view? And so this year I really made it a point to call you for a different point of view. Or my son Ryan for a different point of view. Ryan and I look at the world a little differently sometimes too. He's he's much academically smarter than I am, and he's very worldly because he makes himself worldly. So I would call him once in a while and say, Hey, what do you think about this? to get that other point of view. And I think that was something that helped us this year too. Because you and I think so much alike, right? I want to ask you. I'm gonna flip the script and ask the host a question. How do you think that worked for us this year? By me asking you and seeing some of what you would say or or combinations of what we were thinking come to light. What do you think?
SPEAKER_04:So I think this is one of the biggest things when people who have had personality issues with you in the past have brought up like Jeff does this or Jeff does that, and I've always said, well, actually, he has been improving significantly this year by doing exactly what you're doing is pausing, taking a second, getting an opinion, and then you're gonna do what you're gonna do. But the decisions you've made after that have been better decisions or more like logical. So, you know, for our listeners, Jeff comes from a law enforcement background. And I think that anybody who comes from a law enforcement background has some habits that they develop within the law enforcement field to always feel like, for example, someone is out to get them. Jeff knows this well enough. And it comes from that, and you know, we've always said, and Mad and I have talked about this a lot, in the age of text messaging, you're so accessible that it feels like you need to respond immediately. Just this son of a gum, how dare they? And then you can just go pop and come right back at them. But what you learned this year, even in that pausing to make the phone call, is it gives you enough time to stop and think, like, don't just react. And just in the discourse, so I learn a lot by just talking. So even in that conversation, if you're just getting another point of view, you're also just having a conversation which lets you work about why are you upset about this? What are they doing? How can we look at this differently? And even just having that discourse, I think equips you as when you were in charge with a better understanding of how to come back at it, and it stops you from the rush response. And the rush response is always what screws you. I've done rust text messages, and you know what happens? Screwed you. I fuck myself. There's my one swear for the episode.
SPEAKER_03:Note to the listeners, Jeff has not cursed one time, not one time today.
SPEAKER_04:I'm more comfortable doing it because I keep getting away with it somehow. And so, like, with that, like, yeah, I think that that was one of the things is is that through our conversations, I saw you chiseling your corners in some spots and being like, all right, yeah, you're right. This person is either a not worth my anger because you're just they have no control over the situation. So you don't need to just put them on blast, you can just be like, no, like, we're not gonna do that. Sorry. You can be mad all day. You can you can scream to the wind, but I am just the man who's sitting there going, You're just not, it doesn't matter to me. Like, have fun with it. So I think that that's really good advice to anybody, even myself. I don't have the answers, but in the conversation, and we talk about this on the podcast all the time, in the just the fellowship and the conversation, you'll find yourself just coming to a better solution a lot of the time. And it might not be just taking that person's point of view, it's just sharing ideas and then coming up with a new idea to how to handle something.
SPEAKER_03:I'm glad to hear you say that because I I did I did rely on you and Matt quite heavily this year for you know, slowing down, taking a breath. How do you think we should handle this? Sometimes you fire off, right? And that's just the way it is, or but you have to be yeah, I think you have to be able to make a sound decision based on different points of view. And uh and that's something I also did differently this year. Like I said the in the beginning, I my first year I let two brothers of our lodge really kind of run things. It's embarrassing to say that because a leader shouldn't do uh shouldn't do that, but I was young and and it definitely made me better and different this year. I would never let that happen again. Advice from people that you trust, especially when they don't see the world or they see the world differently or have a different opinion on things, that's important. That's really important because I think that does make you more a more effective leader, and I feel I I tried I do I did my best that way this year. I feel I did okay with that.
SPEAKER_01:No, you did. So no, you did, and I I think that's also a sign of a good leader. You know, I'm I I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here and call myself a good leader, but I did the same thing. My year in the East, I spent a lot of time talking to you about things. I spent a lot of time talking to you about things, you know, and it's honestly you need that different perspective, or you just need to bounce something off of somebody before you handle it. It's either gonna confirm how you wanted to handle it, or it's gonna give you a different opinion, and maybe there's a middle ground there, or maybe you're like, nope, that other way to handle this is way better than I would have done it. That's what your wardens are there for, right? And that's part of the training of your wardens, too, because now your wardens get to understand some of those things that go on, and they feel like their opinion is valued as a member of the team. It it creates multiple things on multiple levels. You know, you're you're being transparent, you're including them in on conversations to prepare them for when they get to the East, and you're reassuring them that they're a valued member of the team and their opinion matters. It gets you to a better solution most of the time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and and to Jeff's point on the the problem of the yes man scenario. So certain types of leaders always think they know the exact truth, right? And they go, My truth is the truth. And those types of leaders who think that highly of their opinion will be inclined to feel any sort of pushback or different opinions as a threat to that belief that they hold, right? Well, no, I know better, so why how how dare he talk? I'm gonna take it personally that he has a different opinion. When you'll find that with your friends and your people you surround yourself with, when they're pushing back out of it, it's not because they dislike you, it's because they're trying to help you. And so, what the weakness is within that, you know, you come up with a super dumb decision and you just go, oh, you know what, I'm gonna do this. And then the guys go, heck yeah, boss. I think that's the smartest thing you've ever said in your life. And then they go to the next guy, he's like, dude, I want to kiss you on the mouth. And then they're like, okay. And then he goes out and does it, but then he's not having the opportunity to even self-reflect or having a challenging conversation. The biggest strength a leader can have is someone who thinks differently than them, because in the discourse they both get to learn about each other and actually come up with a better plan. Because when you're only looking at a thing from one perspective, you're you're putting blinders on each side of your little eyes, and it's not gonna give you the best results. No good leaders just make decisions themselves, they're always surrounded with it, and that's something that's alluded to in the I mean, we're all in New York, right? The past master's degree, virtual past master degree of that thing, talking about like it's a team effort, man. Like, like you're gonna need this. Because if you lose that, that's where you see this like toxic leadership, and it is something that I think any leader in any position, whether it be a lodge, something at work, in the grand lodge level, whatever it might be, needs to take very, very seriously. Because if everyone in the room just goes, I love you, then you just go, you go, what? And then like, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01:It's like I love you so much.
SPEAKER_04:You want to know that it's messed up.
SPEAKER_01:You want to know the secondary problem to that? All those people that sit in that room and go, I love it. I think you're doing everything the right way, as soon as you're out of the room.
SPEAKER_04:They talk shit about you behind your back. Yeah, they'll never say it to you, but the thing is, yeah, any leader knows that people are gonna have criticism. If you're not hearing it there, you're hearing it somewhere else. They're hearing you say it somewhere else.
SPEAKER_03:Well, if you if you think about our staff meetings this year, not only starting in June with Matt or in Matt's year, but all the whole year, right? I mean, we had the cookout here at my house, we did a staff meeting. The whole the whole every one of them that we did. I I always ended with going around the table, tell me what you think. What have I done wrong? What have I done right? Right? This is an open forum, no one's gonna get in trouble, right? I was told that once and it wasn't true about opening your mouth and giving opinions. But that's so so that life experience made it different for me. I truly wanted everybody's opinion. Some guys, you know, once in a while, a couple times, like like Ethan R would say, Well, I I think this. Okay, take a note, right? Maybe change the way you're doing it, or at least take that into consideration. I will say at my last staff meeting in November-ish, I think it was after elections, right? I I was actually a little disappointed that because I know I didn't do that. I mean, I did a good job, I think, but I didn't do a phenomenal, freaking great job. I was a little disappointed I didn't get more negative feedback. I did. Well, yeah, but I can always count on that. Even if I even if I was 100% perfect, you would find that 0.5% that I did wrong.
SPEAKER_04:That's what frustrated me in that meeting, too, is I was like, Jeff wants your feedback, and everyone's like, love you. I did, just like he wants your feedback, he's asking for it. Help him.
SPEAKER_03:They did do it throughout the year, don't get me wrong. But I, you know, something that Jesse said at installation, one one line that he said to me in what he wrote really stuck with me about that you how you can be intimidating in your own way. I'm slightly okay with that, but slightly troubled by that, right? I don't think that a boss should be intimidating, but you should know that he that that person is the boss, and you need to respect that person who is the boss. And if that means being intimid intimidated by that, sometimes, so be it. Not intimidated to the fact where you're fearful, because I don't think that I was that bad, but you know, I I wish I would have gotten some different feedback, like next time don't say this or do that. Because I asked for it and I can handle it. I if I couldn't handle it, I wouldn't have asked for it. When you can take that feedback and and not be upset or mad or pissed, right? But uh but it but absorb it and listen to it and pay attention to it, and maybe even make that change. That makes that's just a that just makes you another step closer to being a better leader. So I was a little disappointed I didn't get as much negative feedback, but you know, and it would be a fool, uh, an arrogant fool to think that you did such a great job that nobody's got anything bad to say. That's you're just an arrogant fool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I didn't pitch in on anything at that meeting because we've had those conversations. Well, you and I talk every day, man. I mean, right. So that's a little bit different story, but I mean I didn't need to add it in because we already talked about it.
SPEAKER_03:And when you think about it, I talked to Andrew on average, what, at least once or twice a week. I would say on average. So between the three of us, I can understand that. But you know, your your junior, your your senior deacon, your junior deacon, your stewards, you know, your counselor, right? Did did I did I ride Joe too hard on being a counselor? You know, there were times, you know, when I would talk to him about education. He's like, Well, that's not going on. I said, That's not according to the plan you gave me. Oh, oh, well, well, let me take a look at that. When was I too hard? I I I really wish I would have had just a little bit more negative feedback to because it makes me better.
SPEAKER_01:So So the the whole like intimidation thing is a weird thing. And I always I always go back to when I did I didn't mean to be intimidating, Justin.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01:I kind of did. When I go back to working at St. Joe's doing security, I was like one step below be being a supervisor. So I was the training officer a lot of times for you know new guys coming in and stuff like that. And I got called to my supervisor's office one time because the new guy felt like I was intimidating while I was training him. And in my mind, I went, What did I do that was intimidating? I told him what goes on at this job, I've been showing him everything else and stuff, and I quickly processed it in my head, and I looked at my supervisor and I went, Well, if he finds me intimidating and I'm on his team, should he be here? Yeah, is the the public's gonna be twice as intimidating. You know, so there everybody has a different perspective on that, and I wouldn't say that you're intimidating, you just want to see stuff get done.
SPEAKER_04:And done right. Right. And to your point where the intimidation is mixed, is I think people were intimidated by not doing what they're supposed to do. Right. Right? But any feedback I've ever given you, you weren't like, I'm gonna take this personally and I'm going to come after you. You would go, oh, okay. And then you'd write it down and you'd you'd go, okay, I'm gonna take your feedback. And I mean, there's an important thing to be said about giving feedback correctly, like, don't be an asshole and just like rip the guy a new one when he's asking humbly for feedback. So there's an important way, like give effective and not rude feedback. Sure. But I think the the fear might have came from is the I got chewed out because I didn't do what I was supposed to do. So now I'm afraid to give feedback when you shouldn't, because that was never where that was directed.
SPEAKER_01:So I think the the difference and the confusion that probably happens for a lot of people a lot of times, light bulb just went off for me. There's a difference between intimidation and accountability. Yeah, and people confuse the two. When you hold them accountable for something they didn't do, right, they consider it to be intimidating because they're being held accountable. Yep. When actually the issue isn't that you're being intimidating, the issue is they didn't do what they were supposed to do, and you're calling them on it.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, that's that's a Jap's huge. Yep. I gave you a task, you didn't do it. Now you're gonna hear about it. Yep. Happened once at our trustees meeting. More than once, about seven times.
SPEAKER_01:That doesn't matter, about fifty percent. But also look at how much we got done because people were being held accountable, right? You you got the widow's list sorted out, you got all that caught up and taken care of. Parking lot. The parking lot got done, the trustees got moving on the AV system.
SPEAKER_03:Think about the lights too. I mean, that's a year ago. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Lights.
SPEAKER_04:We reorganized both of the offices and got those squared away.
SPEAKER_01:The new tiles, the chairs happened in my year, right? Because I I I finally put my foot down on that. Like I'm tired of talking about these damn chairs. Yeah. Let's go, let's go get the chairs because I'm tired of talking about them.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. Jeff, what would you say? We've talked a lot about the things that went well. What was your biggest challenge this year to overcome?
SPEAKER_03:Teamwork. I stood, I said right from the beginning, and I mentioned this earlier, that not that I want to beat a dead horse. I'm big into teamwork, right? My eight years in the military, you're part of a team. And when we had a good team, my platoon was successful. If we weren't successful, we would not have gotten awards overseas, right? From those particular post command sergeant majors and things of that nature. For my teams, our our unit, specifically my platoon or my squad, we wouldn't have been decorated. It's teamwork, right? I've I and in the police department, teamwork, right? You have to you have to be part you have to be an active member of the team. So your your squad partner, or you know, I wasn't a member of our SWAT team, our our TAC team, but you know, those guys are team. You're successful because you're part of a team. I have tried to push and push and push and push and push teamwork, legitimately, teamwork, like real teamwork, right? And that goes back to giving me negative feedback. How could we have how could we have taken this hill differently? You know, platoon sergeant, or whatever. How could we have tackled things differently this year? There was a couple of officers this year that I didn't feel were part of the team. Three, to be exact. I'm not gonna name them, of course, because that's that's inappropriate. One of two of them I had conversations with. One went ugly, one understood it, one I didn't. But teamwork was, I think, my biggest challenge. I I tried to push forward this year. Nobody cares if you're a past master or the junior steward. You are either A elected or B appointed by the guy who was elected to run the lodge, which that responsibility falls on him, right? And this is a team. We're not going to be successful or effective if we're not a true team, which is why a lot of us do things outside of Lodge, right? You build that camaraderie, that teamwork. That was my biggest challenge. Three officers weren't part of the team. And that not only hurt my feelings, because at least two of them I've known for many, many, many years. So it not only hurt my feelings, but it was frustrating. Because you're expecting jobs to be done and work to be done by the team, and these people aren't part of the team, you know. I don't care, I didn't care that you were a past master. You should be here at six o'clock in the morning. If you if you're an officer, right? You should be here at six o'clock in the morning for Santa's breakfast. You should be while the while the master of the lodge, me, right, during our awards dinner, which was something that we did differently this year, which I think was wildly successful for as small as we'd made it, right? Yep. I I go grab two vacuum cleaners, put one out in the middle of the lodge or the fellowship hall so somebody gets the hint, and I'm grabbing the other one vacuuming. When a member of my team is putting on his jacket leaving. I I I personally had problems with that. That was probably my biggest challenge. I was very lucky. Lake Lodge is very lucky that we have such a dedicated core and group of officers. Not not even me, you know, but you and Matt and Jason and Ethan and Ethan and Jesse and you know now Jim too, and and everybody, right? John, John, super dedicated. We're very lucky that we have this dedicated core group of guys that have been around long enough. I think that I would be less bent out of shape at one brother if he would have come forward early in the year and give us, I don't want to say a personal update, because it's really none of our business, your personal life-ish. However, when your personal life is affecting what's happening at Lodge, there has to be a little bit of communication. Communication there. I think that things would have been a lot better if that brother would have communicated better. And it's not like he he wasn't given the opportunity, right? I gave millions of opportunities. That's I think that would probably be my biggest challenge. I would have liked to see 13 officers together all the time doing lodge stuff because it not only it not only builds relationships, it builds the team, which helps the younger guys down the road, which puts our lodge into a better light. Because there are times that other people from other lodges came to some of our events, whether it was park cleanup or whether it was the Burns Dinner or whether it was whatever. And we're like, wow, you most of your officer corps is here. That's really that's amazing. Other lodges don't do that, right? You know, and I've traveled a lot, not as much as you, Matt, but I would say 75%, right? I mean, you're you're way out there, but I've seen lodges, you know. There when the when there's no teamwork, nobody wants to stick around and help. That was my biggest challenge this year was trying to get 13 guys to be on the team and to buy into that teamwork. And I think that maybe maybe four, but three and a half, three and a half guys. How's that? A couple of them are past masters, and I understand, right? You've done your time in the East. You don't want to do this, or you don't want to get up for that. Again, when you're an elected officer, or the the big elected officer appoints you, you have a responsibility to the lodge, and and and things just work better when you're a team. It's that simple. That was my biggest challenge. That's a long story, Andrew. I'm really sorry. I get diarrhea of the mouth about that, but that was my biggest challenge this year, I think.
SPEAKER_01:I understand your I understand the I'm a pass master. I don't want to get up that early to do this feeling. But no, I didn't come to the dinner breakfast because I wasn't an officer. No, no, no. Okay. No, I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna jump on you about that. He's saying a pass master in the right. I know.
SPEAKER_03:I was I'm messing with him.
SPEAKER_01:I've I wasn't gonna jump on you about that, actually. So what I was gonna say was if you're a pass master that chooses to still hold a position, you should absolutely 100% be the example of being the person that's there at 6 a.m. Because not only are you establishing that even though I'm a pass master, I'm still an officer of this lodge and I still have a job to do, right? You are also a valued resource for information. And your opinion and the advice you can offer at whatever is going on is valued. Your experience too, being a pass master.
SPEAKER_03:Your experience too. What if you see something going on during an event that you're like, hey, wait a minute, I I've encountered this, you know. Hey Matt, maybe we should do this instead. Right. Let me tell you why, blah, blah, blah. Right. You know, the experience too, you can't knock that experience. You know, servant leadership is huge, and it should be servant leadership should be followed by every single member of a lodge or a grand line or any volunteer organization. Servant leadership, get out there and do it. How can you be mad at somebody for not if you're not willing to get your your shoes dirty?
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And those pass masters are a valued member of your lodge, and if they're continuing in an officer position, they need to be present and set the example for being part of the team. You know, it is very interesting, and I'm sure you went through this and you might someday being a pass master and going back in the line and humbling yourself to realize you're not the boss anymore. And you have to just sit there and do the junior warden thing. And you can you can whisper counsel when asked, or if it's something crazy when you feel like you should just interject yourself and whisper counsel, you know. But for the most part, you you have to take a step back and you have to go, I'm not in the east anymore. I held that position once, but I don't anymore. This is my job now. I'm gonna do my job and stay in my lane. And that isn't necessarily the easiest thing in the world to do.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and and before we move off of, I actually think there's something we should move into on that point. Before we do, like the the thing is, so it's fun about my job this last year. What I learned in that role, and I actually really enjoyed about it, is the senior warden is like the first mate on the ship. He is the bridge between the master and the rest of the team. So you'd get upset sometimes, be like, why didn't they come to me directly? Why'd they go to you? And I go, first mate. I go, that's the first mate job. I go, the first mate.
SPEAKER_03:That's a tough thing to tackle, let me tell you.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I know, but I think that was me actually doing exactly what I was supposed to do for you and for them, is if there's something that they are feeling so bad about that they feel too much shame to go to the master directly, they come to you first as the first mate. They go, hey, like something's going on. Like, I I know I need to talk to daddy about it eventually, but like, how do we how do we deal with this and all that stuff? And so I firmly believe the senior warden's job is to be the pulse check between the master's subordinates and the master sometimes, and to be that little bridge to be like, okay, so there was a lot of things that would come to me that never came to you. And I just said, Well, this is as a senior warden, I knew exactly what you cared about, what your deadlines were, what needed to get done. So I would filter things like go, this doesn't need to go to the executive, this is what and standing in your place, I'd be like, this is what he needs to do, so you don't need to like cause a scene here, like this is what you need to do. And so, as the first mate, that was their job because you are not the their boss, you're just the closest thing to it, and so you're given a lot of opportunity to hear things and help assist your executive because you do sit in between both worlds, you have your feet in both. And so, what's frustrating when it comes to the team issue is the team notices when we have an expectation and we're filling in, and we have a strong officer core that is able to cover for someone who has something come up, and like the biggest thing that I took from your year that I still am struggling with, and I'm only not even a month in, is no call, no show, just no one, just nothing happened. And I have to be like, hey man, like I I'm gonna be understanding that things come up and there might be an all-officer thing, but something can get in your way that this is your hobby, but you have to communicate it, and in advance, if possible. If you found out a week ago something was happening that was gonna interrupt it, why didn't you tell me a week ago? Like, because then I can figure it out and we'll cover for you. I'm not gonna shame you because something came up.
SPEAKER_03:Put that in your notes and address that at your staff meeting if you're having one in July or your.
SPEAKER_04:One of the brothers is very new to the line, so he might not understand yet. And I just texted them next day and was like, Hey, didn't see ya. They also both missed the officers' meeting, too. And I go, Didn't see ya at these two things. What are you okay? Like, have you been hospitalized? Like, what's going on? No, I'm fine, just busy. And you're like, Okay, I hear you. And then I had to be like, now I'm always gonna understand that things come up, but you have to tell me, right? Because the thing is the team is strong enough that we're willing to cover for each other. Already a couple of officers that in advance of a couple events, like, hey man, I'm gonna be out of town for this and that. And I just go, no biggie, just tell me.
SPEAKER_03:Because then I will make the write it down because that's my biggest problem. I did not write it down when people told me they weren't gonna be there sometimes, and then had to go back through a text message and be like, okay, I'm no longer mad.
SPEAKER_05:Right, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:No, but I mean, they've done that one too. When we say all officers on deck, that means unless something else has already been like you already knew in advance and all this stuff, or something crazy came up, we're expecting you to show up. And I I think that some officers will feel annoyed because, like, let's say, for example, breakfast Santa starts at 6 a.m. They'll say, I'll be there at 7. You go, okay, thank you. That's fine. They come at 7, they go, There's nothing to do. And you just go, well, early bird use the worm if you want to do stuff, but we still need you here because there's going to be work that's coming up. Sit down and do what you and Byron did. Go play some cribbage then for a second. That's right. Hang out, show that you're there and willing, so that when then the inevitable comes up that someone comes up and be like, yo, dude, something's come up. We need to do this and that. You're showing that you're willing and available because I think the challenge with some of these lodges that have issues where their officer cores and showing up is because they've built a habit that it's okay not to show up. And so even if there's not gonna be as much work to be done as you would like, I want the habit to be there that if it's an all-offers thing, you show up and you make your hands available. And if there's nothing for your hands to do, you're gonna have some fellowship with your other officers until there is something to do.
SPEAKER_01:I'd rather have too many hands than not enough.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. And that builds the habit that, hey, on these nights I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna do that because you never know. You might have to put out fifty-five tables, and then suddenly you need all hands back at it.
SPEAKER_03:I I do think that I'm partially to blame for part of my frustration because I should have I made mention of it once or twice to one of the brothers that didn't come into a lot of things. But I really should have, I not looking back on it, I really should have sat him down and said, figure it out. Dude, right? We're trying to build a team here. But but you know, in the but in the same token, I mentioned teamwork at every single meeting. I try to build it not only in the lodge, but outside of the lodge.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't know how much more I could No It's it's just sometimes that stuff's gonna happen, and it's unfortunate, right? Because you want everybody to be as involved a member of the team, and you know, sometimes it happens. You can't ultimately you're leading the team, and there's always gonna be I don't want to call call them the weak link, but out of an amazing team, even if 13 guys are on the team are amazing, somebody's gonna be slightly less amazing than somebody else. You know, it that's just inevitable.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and then the job of the master is to try to figure out how to cultivate the amazingness in that link, or if it's impossible, then figure out what you do next. And I think when you do have a team like ours, where everyone does operate at a very high level, it makes it even harder to be that guy who's like, dude, like I my life doesn't commit like allow me to do this, etc. etc. And so you can make accommodations here and there as long as you know there's something to be built off of. But it is complicated, like I mean, like with if you don't take that brother aside in advance, you can allow something to fester and then build into a big blow-up, and then that becomes unfortunate because you could have been reared off the front, but at the same time, there's that hope, especially when you've known somebody for a while, that they will rehabilitate themselves, and sometimes it just doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I feel like it's a it's a complicated spot to put someone in. And you know, also one thing I learned as the senior warden in a highly effective team with a very task-oriented master, is part of my job was to clean up Jeff's messes. So he would go through, tell somebody what they needed to be told in a way that they needed to hear it, but might not be as good to their sensibilities because it feels bad to realize that you're not doing your work. Then I'd come through and be like, hey, buddy. Like, I hear you got a little paddling from daddy. Like, like just so you know, he still loves you, we still love you. But yeah, you needed you needed to understand that there is a responsibility that you agreed to and you swore to do.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And so don't hate the hand who lays the paddle for you who were completely aware of what you should have been doing and didn't.
SPEAKER_03:Completely aware is the key because I laid it out six months in advance.
SPEAKER_01:No, it goes back to accountability. It does 100%.
SPEAKER_03:You're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_01:It it's it's accountability, and people don't necessarily like being held accountable all the time, right? And part of the problem of managing a high functioning team when you're talking to those people, it's like you're already operating at a high level. You you are one of the high functioning members of this team because the entire team is high functioning. Guess what? Everybody else is a little higher functioning than you right now. So I'm gonna need you to step it up a bit, which is which is really hard to say to somebody that's already functioning at a high level. Like, but everybody else is functioning at a higher level than you.
SPEAKER_04:You know, I do want to say to any of our conspiracy listeners, when I say paddling, I'm not talking about an actual paddle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, good call.
SPEAKER_04:I want to make sure we're understanding for clarifying as symbolic that you get a dressing down. There's not a ritual for that. I will say, too, that there's another reason that I think that is important to bring up. So our coach on the hurling club, he loves a good dressing down as well. And everyone goes, Well, that's a good thing. It means he gives a shit about you. And he goes, Because there's people that he does not ever talk to, because he goes, hopeless, and he just won't even encourage, hold them accountable. He goes, There's no hope for you. Why would I waste my breath holding you accountable when I don't think you're worth anything? So when you receive accountability, it's because that person goes, I I think you can do better. Right. And there's so there is a silver lining to that saying, yeah, it never feels good to realize you messed up. But the fact that he's even wasting his energy on you is because he thinks you could do more. That's a darn good point.
SPEAKER_03:I never even thought about it.
SPEAKER_04:And if he doesn't, it means and you know you're messing up, it means he truly just thinks you're hopeless and goes, Whatever. Like, I don't even need to waste it on you.
SPEAKER_01:You're just you're hopeless. Right. Right. No, I would 100% agree. If I'm gonna put my time and energy into having a conversation with somebody to say, Hey, you didn't do what you were supposed to, it's because I know they have it in them to do what they're supposed to, you know.
SPEAKER_03:I think I waited too late to tell one brother how disappointed I was. I mean, he his when it came to his job, he did a good job in the lodge, but for our events and exterior stuff or outside of lodge things, I I did tell him. I don't know how he took it. I did tell him. I was sober when I did it too. That always helps.
SPEAKER_04:So to switch gears a little bit from the negatives, which I mean I think that's a personality thing that I think every master is gonna deal with. And I'm already finding sitting on my plate, I actually started getting emails about it before I was installed, which kind of pissed me off where I was like, I don't need to wear the hat yet. I was like, why am I getting all these emails?
SPEAKER_01:Because you were elected.
SPEAKER_04:That's right. I got stuff before elections. And I was like, I was like, boys, boys, I'm not even in the mindset.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it should be though. By by October, you know that the guy sitting in the east is a lame duck, he's not gonna move any, you know. Uh in a normal lodge that's in a regular progressive line, he's a lame duck, he's not gonna should be doing stuff all the way up to the end like I did, right? I was taking emails and text messages and making decisions up until Friday of installation, right? But some guys are just a lame duck and they don't do it. I I don't have any problem with the crossover.
SPEAKER_01:I I I remember that like going into the end of my year leading up to your year, where somebody would message me about something, and I'd instantly go, is this my problem or does that fall into next year?
SPEAKER_03:I'm gonna push that one off.
SPEAKER_01:Like they're asking me about something that happens in January. So Jeff would technically be installed at that point. All right, reach out to Jeff.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and that's one thing good that Jeff did as well is including the senior leadership on the types of emails and things going on so you can have the visibility. Like, this is what's coming up, these are the type of emails you're getting, this is what you need to be prepared for, you need to know how I'm responding so that you can learn that eventually this is going to fall on your shoulders.
SPEAKER_01:But this that leads me into something that I think we should do as a lodge and have lakewm at gmail.com that gets passed from one worshipful master to the next. So you have a record of everything that's been going on.
SPEAKER_04:Technically, we have two. We have one that the drive is stored on and one that existed before ABC.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you should have like Lake WM, Lake SW, Lake JW. Those three should have a dedicated email. So if the person needs if somebody from outside the lodge always needs to reach out to whoever's in that chair, they can, and then you have a historic account for the next guy.
SPEAKER_04:I agree. We can look at that as far as one of my tech initiatives. But the the question I want to ask Jeff is now that after many years of serving in an officer position, how are you going to adjust to past master life?
SPEAKER_03:That's a that's a really good question, actually. Because I I put a lot of thought into that starting in November, right? So you go from being the boss all year and making hard decisions and dealing with a lot of the crap that we had to deal with as Lake this year to knowing in January, well in December, but in January, your first data meeting that you go to, you're just a sideliner. That's a big change. And Matt touched on it a little bit uh uh earlier about being a past master going back into the line. Being in the line for me, that part was easy because you know your place, right? You can either be a great leader or you can be a good soldier. And I think that I can bridge that gap, right? So as junior deacon or correction, yeah, junior deacon for two years under Jeremy, right, because it was a COVID year, you do what you're told. It's that simple. You're a junior officer. Same as senior deacon, junior warden, senior warden, until you become the boss, right? That that part of it was easy for me. How am I going to adjust now? I think I think the first thing that helped that helps me was coming to you and saying, I want to let you know that I'm not going to step on your wiener, right? I'm trying not to curse you.
SPEAKER_04:You're the wiener.
SPEAKER_03:Um you're the boss, right? And I'm not going to be that past master that is going to sit on the sidelines and come to you at the bar because I am going to take advantage of the next 50 years of me not having to pay for a drink whatsoever. But I'm not going to be that guy at the bar that comes up and says, I would have done it this way. If you want my opinion, ask. And I told and I told you that, right? I pulled you off to the side and I said, just because I don't say to you, Oh, I would have done it this way, or I think you should do this, doesn't mean I don't care, and doesn't mean that I'm not paying attention or watching as a as a past master or as a member of the lodge, right? I think you have a little bit of heightened sense of how things work when you've been through those chairs and then sitting on the sidelines just being a regular member. One thing that has helped me try to get out of the leadership mindset is don't do that to Andrew. If you want my opinion, ask. I will give you my opinion. If you pull me off to the side and say, hey, what do you think about this? I'm going to tell you. I'm not going to up it. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to sit on the sidelines and I'm going to I think I'm going to enjoy myself. Now, there isn't one past master sitting at at this table or anywhere else in your listening audience that is going to say that they've sat on the sidelines and said to themselves, Oh, I wouldn't have done it that way. Because that's BS. You always are going to do that. You just have to respect what and what what you're going to do this year, what Andrew's going to do this year. You're the boss, right? And so you do have to start to mentally prepare yourself. Yourself, I would say, probably starting in November, of not being the boss, of of relenting that, right? I don't want to be that guy. It's that simple. I don't know if you want to call that arrogance or smart. I don't want to be that guy that comes to you at every meeting and says, Well, I think you screwed this up, or I think you should do that. You want my opinion? Ask. So I've already tried to get myself into that mindset. The other thing is for us, you know, I I do take some of our degree work very, very seriously about, you know, the north is a place of darkness. If if you know, you know, right? I very rarely ever, ever, even visiting lodges, ever sit on the north side of a lodge. Just one of those things with me. However, we've got a couple of past masters and a couple of really older good guys who I know are my buddies that sit in the north and have asked me to come sit in the north and have given me their little their little wooden carving muppet of which muppet I am to wear on my lapel when I sit in the north with them. And I think I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna break out of my out of that I don't want to say shell, out of that taboo. Yeah, that taboo. Right, that's a good word, actually. I think I'm gonna try to break that taboo and sit there for a couple months and see how I feel because I really don't like sitting in the north for anything. But I want to hang out with them. I I think that one person who sits in the north, I think it's gonna make him feel uncomfortable with me being there, but I've been invited there, right? And so if you've been invited there, I think that you should go and at least hang out and see. I've got my my Muppet wooden character of Animal, right?
SPEAKER_01:We have Waldorf, Stadler, and Animal. Right, okay.
SPEAKER_03:I actually had to modify a little bit and I I did talk to Art about it, and he's like, Yeah, just pry that one part off. It was a keychain, a retractable keychain holder. I'm like, well, I don't need this. So I popped that part off and I hot glued a heavy-duty magnet onto it so I can put it so it'll go through my lapel of my of my and I'm and I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna see how it goes. So you you I think you have to really get yourself into that mindset. If you want the advice, Andrew, I'm here for you. And I and you know I would do that regardless of that fact, but I already called you twice, so I know, but and and that's okay. I don't I I don't mind that. I'm here for I'm here for you, I'm here for him, whatever. That's how I have started to transition out of leadership into just being a normal brother. And I do, and I have told myself I am going to make other events, right? I I told you I'm going to hopefully, with your permission, help you more extensively in the kitchen for Robert Burns. Once I can get there and during the meal, because you're gonna be up at the podium, the steward should be out doing whatever you tell them to do, I'll be in the kitchen with you. I I think that once you become a past master, your duties don't end to the lodge, right? And I've stressed that since 2016, right? Which is why you know you end up putting your foot in your mouth and Jeremy asked me to come back. But that's but but that's part of the game. So I'm always gonna be there, I'm always gonna help out, but you just have to mentally prepare yourself. Matt is in charge of the kitchen, he's the junior warden, he's above you in rank, and I really don't want to care. I I don't really don't care for one potential listener out there who says there's no rank in Freemasonry. There is. We're all brothers, we're all in a lodge, but there's elected positions of higher authority for that reason.
SPEAKER_04:There's rank in the officer line that you that you elected that you gave them the authority to read it.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. That that's that's what I mean. And so if I work in the kitchen, I know if Matt tells me to go do this, you just do it. That's just part of the game. Or if Andrew says go do this, you just do it. That's part of the game. Right? You're the boss, you're the master. I'm gonna I I would respect you as a friend, I would respect you as the master regardless. But those are a couple of some of the things that I have been mentally preparing myself for because statutorily I've done six years as a as a trustee. You can only do six elected years as a trustee per Wisconsin Masonic Code. I've sat the chairs almost all the chairs twice. There's really nothing more for me to do in the lodge short of somebody asking me to fill in for a year for a position or do something that I can do. So so it's not only taking a step back from being the past master, it's taking a step back from bro, you're f you're done being an officer of this lodge. And that's you know, after 16 years, that's a big that's a big thing. So I think you have to prepare early. And I have been trying to prepare myself early so that I don't I don't be that guy, I don't offend you, right, Andrew, because you're you're not only my friend, but my worshipable master. I don't want to offend you. So there's a lot of things to take into consideration about that. Yeah, some guys don't understand.
SPEAKER_01:No, and I you know, part of the benefit of having a strong officer line is that it makes that easier, right? I had no concerns passing off the reins to you, Jeff. Right? And like, so it made it so that I didn't have to sit there and go, you know, granted, I went right back into the line as senior deacon, but I didn't have to sit there and go, what's gonna happen now that I'm out of the east? Like, is this gonna be a good year again? I knew what was gonna happen. I knew it was gonna be a good year. You going into the east. I know what's gonna happen. I know it's gonna be a good year. I it makes it easier when you know the person behind you or the next couple people behind you is gonna take the same care and put in the same effort that you did when you were there. It's very easy to become a grumpy pass master or a pass master that interjects himself way too much when you're not confident in the leadership that comes behind you. We are blessed that that transition is easy because we are confident in the leadership that's coming next.
SPEAKER_04:So the the big fear for me, and I will fight against it to the end of my days, is for a long time we have had a very long strong past master presence. And a brother came on this podcast and said, Don't past out. Meaning you get through that and you go, Well, if I can't be an officer, then I'm gonna go find a body I can be one in. And then they move on to the I'm not gonna lie, I don't want to cut you off.
SPEAKER_03:That does go through your mind. Yeah, right. We I just I just rejoined an appendant body, uh albeit a different valley, and I have thought, well, I think I'm gonna go on that particular Wednesday and see what's going on. That doesn't conflict with our lodge, but that you are dead right, Andrew. That does go through a pastmaster's mind. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:A good leader wants to lead.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. And the thing is, is I I am all for a pass master pursuing other passions in other bodies now that they have the bandwidth to do so. But I the two of the people I respect in like so highly in our lodge is Art and Tom. One's a pass master, one's an active brother who's never stopped being active. Haven't had, besides me giving Tom a small part one time, which was fun, they just don't complain. They just go, Well, it's my lodge.
SPEAKER_03:Was that with the columns? I forget. It might have been.
SPEAKER_04:So uh it's an inside joke listeners.
SPEAKER_03:Ask Andrew sometime.
SPEAKER_04:And uh so, you know, bringing him out of the sidelines to do something, they have never relinquished to their attendance in their mother lodge. And, you know, for the first time since I've been a member of this lodge, our lineup of past masters who've stuck around besides the ones who are in the officers' line has started to dwindle thinner. And I go, well, that has put us in a lot of more challenging spots because what I think past masters don't realize is how important they actually are, even if they're just on the sidelines, how their attendance not only bolsters our numbers, but it bolsters our ability to actually have smart people in the room, mentors, and all this type of stuff. And so, like, when I get done doing all the work I've been doing for six years, I want to be an active who's always there, willing to jump in on the events they choose to jump into because they're not required to, but their help is always needed and appreciated. Is that if you're a past master of your lodge and you know, I've met too many, too many past masters where they come to some event and I go, Hi, what lodge are you a member of? And they go, I'm a member of your lodge. And I go, And I go, Wow, I've been here for six years, and I've never met you. Sad. Like very sad that I go, this was something that as someone who's currently at the pinnacle of the lodge goes, you put so much heart and soul into this for years, and then you have a brother come up and say, I don't know who you are. Right. That's sad.
SPEAKER_01:And then you got somebody like Tom, who was set in the East 30 years ago and is at every possible thing he can be at.
SPEAKER_03:And so and both he and Art have done their statutory requirement as trustees.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:I asked Art about that, and he he was a trustee, both both of them were, but they still come. I mean, we gave him didn't you give them recognition?
SPEAKER_01:I did, I did at my honors and awards. I gave them recognition. I can't remember exactly. I think it was like a certificate of appreciation for always being there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And when, you know, a lot of our pastmasters have moved, right? I get it. They've moved and it's harder, and there's some times in life that like that's gonna happen. But there's many, many of our pastmasters that are just in town and not at lot. And I think it's important, and it's one thing I've tried to keep track of, is that as a guy who likes to always have a task, I'd like to think that when I stop having tasks to do, that I want to make it a priority to just say, just go, just be at lodge. They need you. I'll give you tasks. I cut you off what I said I'll give you tasks.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I might want social media back eventually, but you know, but on a serious note, though, if you are a past master and you're looking to stay involved, then go to your worshipful master and say, Hey, I'd like to do something. I did to you, right? You know, for for years for the listeners that don't know, for years and years, I've run our master's boards, right? And I didn't do it this year because as the worshipful master, I find it inappropriate that you sit on the master's board, right? It's a conflict of interest. And I'm I'm a big proponent of non-conflict of interest as much as you can. So I relinquished that to Grant, who did a good job for me this year, right? I asked him to take over for me, and he did a really good job for this year. Grant has some other endeavors that he's involved in right now, and I knew that. So I came to you and asked, hey, do you mind if I take this job over? And you were fine with it. That keeps me still a little bit, I don't want to say not tied to the lodge, but it gives me something to do that's meaningful for the lodge, other than keeping a red cushion warm on the sidelines. You know what I'm saying? So I would encourage any anybody who's a past master of any lodge anywhere, if you want to do something, go ask your leadership how you can help.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm sure they'll find something for you, whether it's a committee member someplace or doing something, you know, or planning an event or being in charge of contacting widows or like anything like that. There's plenty of jobs that you could pass off to a pastmaster.
SPEAKER_03:One thing that I I didn't think of an hour ago when we were talking about when you had mentioned the challenges for the year, right? Teamwork obviously was my big one. Finding guys that actually want to do an interview. Guarding the West Gate. You know, I gave a huge presentation for a couple of years for Grand Lodge about protecting the West Gate. That's one thing that I'm going to step up this year and do. Since I can't, I I really didn't want to do it as an officer of the lodge because again, I think that's a conflict of interest. But now that I'm not an officer of the lodge and can't be unless, you know, lightning strikes somewhere down the road, I'd like to get involved with doing the interviews again. You know, that gives you one out of three for this year, Andrew, right? Somebody that you know is gonna raise their hand, someone who's gonna run it effectively and efficiently and who knows the process. And it keeps me involved. It makes it makes me feel like I'm doing something still without having to take on the responsibility of 13 text messages and 55 emails and all that stuff like that.
SPEAKER_04:The good news for you is you're probably gonna be trapped with that one way or another because part of my thoughts, because I I as an officer, I would raise my hand sometimes, but as the a very social member of the lodge, I usually didn't raise my hand because I talked to the guy like 20 times and I go, I already have a good feel about them, and I don't think you need me interviewing unless no one else wants to go. I was going to make a change this year that when I start the interview process, I'd say, so I need a chairman, I need a pass master, and so I'm gonna force a pass master to take the chair job because I know that we're like, no, but it gives younger guys like opportunities to be chairs or something. I go, I get that. But a lot of these younger guys, when they're given this, like they might be the first time they've ever done one. I want to do a pass master has to take the chair, and then two ideally newer members fill the other spots so they can start building a relationship with a pass master and do a task. I like it.
SPEAKER_03:I'll volunteer for it if you want to if you're gonna make it a committee because I like again that just makes me think I'm doing something that it's not necessarily gonna be a committee, it's just gonna be all right.
SPEAKER_04:So, first off, we have an interview committee we need. I need one pass master to be chair. Hand raised, you're the chair. Now I need two members to be on the committee with them and do it that way because I think it builds not only because you know, as I said in my installation, one of my goals is to put the craft at work, meaning the sideliners, because those officers got a lot on our plate. So we're cannibalizing our officer line for everything. And we have all these members who want to do something. Let's have them do something. So even if it's just doing that a couple times a year, perfect.
SPEAKER_03:You should put that in your next email.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Honestly, put it out there to everybody who actually reads their emails, right? That says, Hey, we're gonna look for volunteers to do this. Because it's tough. You guys sat in lodge. How many times did I have to threaten with volunte? Right. I actually had to do it once, volunteer an entire interview committee.
SPEAKER_01:I typically the only time I volunteer having been in the officer line for so many years and not been a sideliner, typically the only time I volunteer to be on an interview committee has been when I've either been junior steward, because I didn't sit senior steward, or junior warden. Because in those two, in those three positions, the stewards and the junior warden, you don't typically really get a chance to interact with your potential petitioners because you're stuck in the kitchen, right? So if I'm out on the floor and I've like you interacted with this guy a whole bunch of times, I don't want to be on his interview committee. I want I want somebody who hasn't had the opportunity to interact with him a lot to be on that interview committee because they're gonna bring a different perspective. I can still voice my opinion when we read the ballot and do the master's board. Right, and do the master's board. I can still voice my opinion on this potential candidate at that point because I've had that interaction. Somebody who hasn't needs to be on the interview committee so that they can learn more about the person they're about to cast a ballot on.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I'm gonna volunteer as much as I can because it makes me think, like I said before, it makes me feel like I'm doing something proactive for the lodge. I'm I'm not I personally am not ready to sit back and just put my feet up. Just like you know, I I've been retired since 2019. I've held now two jobs since then, right? I can't I I'm not somebody that sits back and puts their feet up. I just can't do it. I I want to do something. And if it makes it effective for the lodge, then then I want to I want to help that. And I do like I said, I I gave a lot of presentations for Grand Lodge and protecting the Westgate. I I wholeheartedly believe that that is an extreme importance. And we we had that recent SNEFU that you you know we dealt with at the very end of my year with a a potential candidate. And I I you know so it's important. So I am it is and it's very important. So I am going to volunteer quite a quite a bit.
SPEAKER_01:So we should probably get to wrapping this episode up, though. We've been going for an hour and forty-four minutes.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Another Karen glass of bourbon, and I'll go on for another two hours. This is why we like having you on the podcast, Jeff. Right? Because booze is free. No, no, no, because we we we talk extensively and we get into the weeds about stuff, and it's always a good conversation.
SPEAKER_03:You know, every you know, every four months we can do another one.
SPEAKER_04:And I I want to say to you, Jeff, too, as you're moving into your pass master life, if there are ways you think the pass masters can be involved more, I want to hear them, and I want to hear them often because I think a lot of the reasons why pass masters passed out is because they feel like there's nothing left for them to contribute. I mean, we do it every time we do our yearly ballot, we put pass masters to do the the officers balloting collection, but that's not enough. And so I want to find new and unique ways to not only include our sideliners, but to get our pass masters experience being lobbied in a way that makes sense for them to have it. And I think investigation committee is just the tip of the iceberg because that's the perfect thing. Somebody who actually knows what the heck they're talking about and actually understands what a Mason is, being the chairman, who has enough experience to know how to conduct these things effectively to guard the Westgate, and can get a good pulse on someone who's been around the block is important. But there's that's the tip of the iceberg on the ways we can utilize our pass masters without sh shoving them back in the officer line, which is a great undertaking for a pass master to do for their lodge, but there are good ways to utilize them in retirement. You know what I mean? In their retirement from the lodge, but they still have jobs periodically throughout the year.
SPEAKER_03:What do you think on that? You know, uh one one thing that comes to mind is like when you look at D Malay, and you know, I've been I don't want to say heavily involved in D Malay. You know, I was uh the the chapter dad and chapter chairman for the priory, but but my boys have been heavily involved, and I've listened to Ryan and Sam throughout the years, and they've got like an alumni association type thing.
SPEAKER_04:Pass masters club.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No, honestly, something like that where we can get these the the surviving uh past masters into like maybe having a breakfast and say a society. How come you guys don't do this thing? How come you don't come to you know figure it out? So let me think about that and I'll work on that and I'll I'll get back to you on that because that's that's a really good idea. Like some like like an alumni society. I mean, we have our past masters and widows dinner.
SPEAKER_04:That should be one of their events.
SPEAKER_03:It's all of them.
SPEAKER_01:And we don't always get a boat ton of Well, and you know what would be just spitballing off the top of my head here could be interesting. If you could actually get a bunch of pass masters together that maybe do bi-monthly, like every other month, breakfast or something like they get together somewhere and have breakfast, whatever. Why not let them plan the passmasters and widows dinner? So I've been having some secret thoughts for many years.
SPEAKER_03:In conjunction with the senior warden, though, because that's important.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No, the senior warden handled that this year.
SPEAKER_04:That was an anomaly. That was an anomaly.
SPEAKER_03:Did you handle no? Did you handle that?
SPEAKER_04:As junior warden, yes. So here's the thing is so I've been thinking a lot about the Passmasters Society.
SPEAKER_01:And then he did again as senior warden, but that was because of our line. Gap in the line.
SPEAKER_04:I did it, I did two years in a row. So the Passmaster Society of our lodge or the Passmasters Club used to put on the Passmasters degree, a modified version of the degree, right after installation before they would go to refreshment at the uh ginger's or something, right? Short degree, all that stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Since when?
SPEAKER_04:It was before your time.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's not how it worked. I I've seen the passmaster stuff, and that's not how it worked. They went to uh they had a dinner and they would have the the junior pass master have it.
SPEAKER_04:So that's how other junior that's how other jurisdictions have done it is right after that. But either way, how it comes out, I would love, and as a pass master, when I'm finally done with this shit, I'm very excited.
SPEAKER_03:Second or third curse by Andrew. There's a light curse.
SPEAKER_04:That's a baby curse, it's a baby curse. It just means poop, it's not a big deal. So the goal in my mind that I want to workshop, especially with you guys, now that we're all worshifuls, is a way to go. There's a couple of meetings a year that the pass masters get that is exclusive. You have some sort of meeting that's a fellowship meeting. You have another one later that is fellowship and planning to do that degree. You have the past masters and widows dinner, and then you have the degree, and one of those I want to be a table locker. Just for Passmasters that is an upscale affair, tuxedos, tablecloth, candlelit, like just a nice thing to say, like you're a past master to encourage not only their involvement, but something special that we set aside for them.
SPEAKER_03:Separate from the past master's dinner?
SPEAKER_04:I want one that's the past master's dinner that's for the group, and then I want a smaller dinner that is where they'd practice for the degree and then do a celebration of past masters just amongst themselves.
SPEAKER_01:I think he is like a guy's only like just a past master's dinner.
SPEAKER_04:Not past masters and families and widows, just a small intimate thing, and they practice the degree during that time to put it on at the next whenever it has a degree. We have it somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:I am aware of where it is, and we will talk about it. We will I don't have it in an electronic version. And I have to recover the physical version, but I I will get it. But it is something different than you're thinking. We can't talk about it on the air. Fair enough. We should get to wrapping this up. And I actually I really want to ask this question because I don't know if we had started doing the question when you were first on the podcast. I did. I gave my advice. Oh, okay. All right. I don't remember what it was because that was like two years ago now, to be honest. But you are now a two-time pass master. For somebody who is about to go in the east or has just recently gone in the east, having done it twice. What would be your biggest piece of advice?
SPEAKER_03:So there's two. I've I actually thought about this because I I I I listen to your podcast all the time. It's really the only podcast I listen to, to be honest with you. Number one, baby. It is. It's for me, right? Which doesn't say much, but um so what I said in the beginning, the first time, planning. That was my biggest mistake the very first time. I didn't get a calendar together until October, November of my first year, which was piss poor, to be honest with you. This year, I clearly was well in advance of the game, having my calendar already set by June and our staff meeting by June, etc. So planning. Plan it, plan your calendar, start early, start thinking about it as a junior steward, right? If if you're dedicated to the craft, you're gonna think about moving through all of the lines that your lodge is asking you to sit through, whether that be from a steward's position or from senior deacon's position for somebody that I'm close to that I disagree with, but I mean he'll do a good job, but should have started earlier. Anyway, start thinking now. Start thinking now about your year. Start your planning. Watch what's going ahead of you. What can you change? What would you like to change? What do you think is great? How can you modify it? Start now. Start your planning. So obviously that's the that I mean that's the first thing I ever said. The second thing I think sort of twofold. Number one, communication. We've mentioned that, we've beat that dead horse many times. You cannot overcommunicate. Whether your officers get mad at you for sending out a text message every day or an email every week or whatever, there can't be too much communication because when you set the standard, when you tell people your expectations, and you follow through with that for an entire year, you're gonna be successful. And if you're not, if somebody's failing, that's on them. You've given that, right? Communication is the big one. And following through is probably the other one. You know, follow through with everything that you're doing. It's it could it it it can be very enjoyable, right? And I know we kind of it sounds a little doom and gloom here because we are so big and we are so active, and not every lodge is as big as and as active as us, but the principles are the same, right? Communication, planning, and do it.
SPEAKER_04:Accountability.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the accountability part of it, and and do what you're gonna do, you know, set that standard. You know, I that's what makes that's what makes or breaks a lodge, you know. Not that I want to get too far off that topic. We had we had a brother one time that would go to the outer door and just say whatever he wanted to say. It's not what our ritual says, right? And I know that when he would have become the master, which he didn't, but I I pulled him aside and said, if you don't teach the young people how to do it right, you can't be mad when it's wrong in your year. Do it now.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And the next month he changed, and then and the months after that he changed, right? So being a being an effective leader like that is important. Having your teamwork is important. So I know I'm getting down a rabbit hole with your question, but we live by the rabbit hole and we die by it. Right, but but the but the communication leads to the to the leadership part, you know, and to the teamwork part, really. And that I think are a lot of the keys to make it effective. I I think we had a really good year this year, again, not tooting my own horn. I don't I don't think I I personally don't think that I would have gotten the most beautiful, heartfelt gift that I got from from the lodge, right? I'm using air quotes from the lodge, but from a brother who must have thought I did a good job, but it was on behalf of the lodge. I wouldn't have gotten that if I don't think I did a good job. Clearly, there were things I could have done better, but you know, those are the the things that I've changed from one year to the next, which is how this podcast started, clearly made it better for not only myself, but for Lake Lodge as a whole, which is the ultimate goal.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I think your advice is extraordinarily solid, and your answer to that question was amazing. And the thing part of the thing that I feel like makes that answer amazing is that is something that can be applied to a lodge, whether you have 20 members of your lodge or whether you have 500 members of your lodge. Communication, planning, and accountability.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. No, and the thing is, so I've been asked since doing this podcast, and we talk a lot about culture on this podcast, and that's been a theme that's run through it. Like, what's your lodge culture? If you don't know what it is, figure it out. You need to know what your culture is. And I've had brothers talk to me from smaller lodges and say, like, hey, like, you know, I don't know if we can do something like that. And I go, and to the comment that I said about pretend that you're a grand lodge, what would you be doing? And I've always thought about this, even though our lodge is larger, it's not that large. Like, we are not, we have some blessings, but for the most part, we're still fighting every year to continue to do our work. We are never given the grace of being like, oh, we have so many options. We have options, but we're not swimming in them where it's like, what an easy time. We're still working. Is the understanding that you need to pretend that you are the big lodge. You might have 20 members. There's a bunch of lodges in this state that I know that have 20, 30 members who are absolutely, unadulteratedly kicking ass fourth swear. They are kicking ass fifth swear. And they are doing a very, very good job. And they Jeff didn't do one. Not very hard. I'm taking them all. And the thing is, is the reason they're doing it to it is because they're not thinking, oh, woe is me. If only I had a hundred members. But I'm gonna tell them the secret sauce. We have 189 members-ish, but we still only are having 20 or 30 show up to our meetings. That's right. So as much as we are blessed to have some more dues payers, we're still fighting that same fight that every other lodge is. But the key is, is if you are giving them the accountability that you mentioned, the respect of their positions, and pretending that you're a big lodge, and what would a big lodge be doing right now? They'd be scheduling events, they wouldn't be sitting on their haunches going, Well, we're just depressed. And you go, no, you need that enthusiasm, you need to make an ambitious goal, you need to chase it, and you need to hold brothers accountable. That's the difference between a growing a lodge with a growing mindset and a lodge with a dying mindset. And that does not depend on your size. Because I have seen a lot of smaller lodges punch up pretty hard because they have a growing mindset and not a dying mindset.
SPEAKER_03:Bro, look at Middleton. They're making huge changes. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Look at Middleton, look at Union Grove. Yeah, yeah. Look at there's tons and tons of lodges I can think of that are just they're just giving a shit.
SPEAKER_03:You get a firecracker in there to light the fuse, and people will follow it. So you're absolutely right, Andrew. So I'd I I want to I want to thank you guys for having me on again. Apologize to the listeners to have to listen to me again. Um But you know what? I do I do think it's an it's an important topic to tackle, right? Like what could you have done better from one year to the next, or what did you do better? That's huge. It shows, you know, it it shows your growth.
SPEAKER_04:Um, sorry, our power dive. We're testing a uh a unique aspect of our capabilities on using uh Milwaukee tool batteries, it seems like, or some sort of batteries. But uh to go back to your point, Jeff, how this is a good topic. And one thing I want to say too, before you go back into your spiel, is I'm happy that we picked you to lead our season three start, because you led our season one start.
SPEAKER_03:Every other year, let's do it. No, I again I I just appreciate it that you that you you brought this top. This is an important topic, right? And and you make a very good point. It doesn't matter if you've got a lodge of 20 or 30 guys or you have a member membership of 1 almost 70 like we do. It it's it's important no matter what, you know. And I I just appreciate you giving me the opportunity to tell people what worked for me and what didn't after being through almost, like I said, almost an entire line twice. There's not a lot of masters that do that. I I'd I'd be curious to see who out there has done it, gone from top, you know, bottom to top, bottom to top twice. But absolutely important. You guys do a great job, and I appreciate you allowing me to be here and give me you know giving me my insight on it, and I hope that I help somebody down the road with some of that, and we'll see.
SPEAKER_04:But I I think we have. We've discussed a lot of good topics. I think this is very functional and helpful work. But as we all are sitting here with empty glasses, I would ask that we all top off quickly. So then I would like to raise a toast for the first time that all three of us, after many years, are all worshipful brothers. You know what?
SPEAKER_03:Cross about time.
SPEAKER_04:Awesome. Andrew was the last one to the party. I am the last one to the party. So, to our of our listeners, welcome to season three. Thank you for coming back. I hope that our break has made the your heart grow nothing but fonder.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And thank you for tuning in. Please follow us on social media. Please share and let us know that we're out here and we're doing stuff and we're looking forward to season three. We got a lot of big fun plans for season three. Got a lot of great interviews just like this one today, where we're dealing with Masonic topics that Masons will love to hear. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03:What's your email address?
SPEAKER_01:It is timeforfellowship at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_04:Timeforfellowship at gmail.com. Thanks for tuning in. I love you guys, and I can't wait to see you on the next episode.
SPEAKER_01:Have a great day, everyone. Welcome to season three,
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